Free Designation of Deposition Testimony - District Court of Colorado - Colorado

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM

Document 207

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 1 of 16
Page 1

1 2 3 4

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO --oo0oo-ROBERTA PULSE, TONYA HOUSE, ) ) Civil No. 03-WM-2074 (PAC)

5

Plaintiffs,

) )

6

vs.

) DEPOSITION OF: ) PAT KRONEBERGER

7

THE LARRY H. MILLER GROUP,

) )

8

Defendant.

) Reported By:

____________________________) Karen Hourt CSR, RPR 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Deposition of PAT KRONEBERGER, taken on behalf of the plaintiffs at 9350 South 150 West, Salt Lake City, Utah, commencing at 9:00 a.m. on July 21, 2004, before Karen Hourt, Registered Professional Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Utah, pursuant to Notice.

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 WITNESS 12 PAT KRONEBERGER 13 Examination by Ms. Ryan 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 PAGE FOR THE DEFENDANT: Judith H. Holmes, Esq. HOLMES & ASSOCIATES 7887 East Belleview Suite 1100 Englewood, CO 80111 (303) 228-2267 INDEX APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: Kimberly K. Ryan, Esq. THE RYAN LAW FIRM 283 Columbine Street, Suite 157 Denver, CO 80206 (303) 777-7585

Document 207
Page 2

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 2 of 16
Page 4

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Page 3

this a transcript. You'll have an opportunity to review your testimony and make changes. If you do, however, make any changes, I'll have an opportunity to comment on that. Do you understand? A. Yes. Q. It's important to remember that because we have a court reporter taking what we say down, that you need to let me finish my questions before you start your answers, and I will likewise do the same. Is that agreeable? A. Yes. Q. If, at any time, I ask you a question that you do not understand, please ask me to rephrase it and, if possible, I will do so. Otherwise, I will assume that you understood the question and that you answered it accurately and truthfully. Is that agreeable? A. Yes. Q. Do you understand what this lawsuit is about? A. I think so. Q. What is your understanding? A. I guess it's a harassment/retaliation suit. Q. I'd like to talk for a few moments about your educational background. Can you please start with high school and move forward?
Page 5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

July 21, 2004 9:00 a.m. PROCEEDINGS PAT KRONEBERGER, called as a witness by and on behalf of the plaintiffs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MS. RYAN: Q. Mr. Kroneberger, my name is Kimberly Ryan. I'm the attorney for Roberta Pulse and Tonya House in their lawsuit against Larry Miller. I'll refer to Larry Miller today. I'm not referring to the individual, I'm referring to the defendant in our case, the Larry Miller Group of Companies and related entities. Do you understand? A. Yes. MS. HOLMES: I object to that characterization of the defendant, but go ahead. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Have you had your deposition taken before? A. No. Q. I'll go over a few ground rules that will help to make it go more smoothly today. As you can see, we have a court reporter here who is taking everything that we say down, who will put into a little book like

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Sure. I went to Fort Collins High in Fort Collins, and then went to -- actually, Snow Junior College for a year, Utah, and finished up at Colorado State in Fort Collins, Colorado. Q. Did you obtain a degree? A. No. Q. How long did you go to Colorado State? A. Right at four years. Q. But you did not obtain a degree from Colorado State? A. No. Q. Do you have any other educational history? A. Just training in the car business. Q. What kind of training have you obtained in the car business? A. Worked for General Motors, and they put me through extensive training; finance and insurance schools. Pat Ryan & Associates Consulting Company put me through a number of very in-depth training classes and training here at the Miller Group, Miller Business Academy. So that's about it. Q. What does the Miller Business Academy consist of? A. It is kind of a NADA, National Automotive Dealer Association, you know, course that we hold and put

2 (Pages 2 to 5)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 6

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 3 of 16
Page 8

together that consists of all areas of the car business. Q. How long is the business academy? A. One year. Q. Is it located here in Utah? A. It's -- we just hold it downtown at a hotel. Q. How many hours a day, is it? A. Eight. Q. Have you ever had any training regarding equal employment opportunity, harassment, or retaliation? A. Um-humm, yes. Q. That's another thing that we'll need to remember throughout the day, try to avoid "uh-huh" and "huh-uh" so we can have a clear transcript. You caught yourself and that was great. What kind of training have you received regarding equal employment opportunity, harassment, and retaliation? A. What time frame? Q. Let's talk first about while you've been at Larry Miller. A. We've -- we have continuing education in all those areas. Human resource department is, you know, continually updating us, you know, on just different various issues. Obviously, you know, we have a handbook that, you know, we can refer to. That's...
Page 7

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

hour-and-a-half. Is that accurate? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question, mischaracterization. THE WITNESS: I've been in classes, quite honestly, that have gone much longer or -- you know, when Linda Jeppeson is covering an issue. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) What is the longest training you've received on EEO and retaliation and harassment at Larry Miller? A. I would say she has gotten up in front of the group and spoke two-and-a-half, maybe three hours. Q. What topics did she, meaning Ms. Jeppeson or Carolyn Ashburn, cover in the EEO harassment and retaliation trainings you've attended? A. Just those topics you've mentioned, which is the harassment, you know, just employee situations that may arise and how to handle them, you know, what the proper process is to go through, so... Q. Based on the very extensive training that you say you've received at Larry Miller, what is your understanding of what harassment is? A. Harassment, you know, I would say somebody being put in a, you know, difficult situation that affects their job or, you know, their work environment and, you know, impedes them from doing their job or, you
Page 9

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Have you attended actual training seminars at Larry Miller? A. Yes. Linda Jeppeson and Carolyn Ashburn have given extensive, you know, lectures on it. Q. When you say "extensive lectures," what are you -- are you referring to any specific training sessions? A. We have a spring meeting, we have a fall meeting. And we invite guest speakers in, you know, how to handle, you know, these issues and just put a real focus on, you know, those types of things. Q. Do you have all-day training sessions? A. No, they normally will take -- we do them in the dealerships, yes. So yes. And Carolyn Ashburn and, like I said, now Linda Jeppeson go out to every dealership and have very extensive training with all the personnel and every dealership in these areas. Q. How many trainings regarding equal employment opportunity, retaliation, and harassment have you personally attended while at Larry Miller? A. Let's see, in the four years I've been here, I would say formalized twice a year. Q. We had some testimony yesterday that the training sessions for equal employment opportunity and harassment and retaliation last about an hour to an

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

know, the atmosphere in which they work. Q. Based on your training that you've received at Larry Miller, do you have an understanding as to whether harassment violates federal law? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: At that point I would consult with our human resources. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) So, you don't know whether harassment violates federal law after your training at Larry Miller? MS. HOLMES: Same objection. THE WITNESS: Once again, I would just consult with human resources. Q. (BY MS. HOLMES) I'm still entitled to an answer as to whether you know or not, so I need you to answer the question. MS. HOLMES: And I object to the form of the question. It's vague and misleading. MS. RYAN: Okay. And I object to you continuing to coaching the witness as you did it yesterday. MS. HOLMES: It's appropriate under the Colorado rules. MS. RYAN: It's not appropriate under the

3 (Pages 6 to 9)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 10

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 4 of 16
Page 12

Colorado. And if we need to get the judge on the phone to avoid this again, we will. You know your objections are limited to object as to form. You cannot coach the witnesses. MS. HOLMES: I'm not coaching the witness, but your question is unfair to him. MS. RYAN: It's not, and he needs to answer it. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) After your training at Larry Miller, do you have an understanding as to whether or not harassment violates federal law? MS. HOLMES: Same objection. THE WITNESS: I would say I'm pretty vague on that. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) So you don't know, one way or the other? MS. HOLMES: Same objection. THE WITNESS: I'm just very unclear. I mean, I'm not an expert in human resources. That's why I defer to human resources. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) I understand that. I'm just try trying to get a sense of your understanding after this very extensive training that you said you've received from Larry Miller. And I'm trying to understand whether you have any understanding at all as to whether
Page 11

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Based on the training you've received at Larry Miller, do you have an understanding whether retaliation violates federal law? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Just unclear on it. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) You referred to the handbook earlier. Do you have an understanding as to what the Larry Miller policy is regarding equal employment opportunity? MS. HOLMES: I'm sorry, could you repeat that? THE WITNESS: Yeah. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) You referred to the employee handbook in your testimony a few moments ago. I'm asking you whether you have an understanding as to what Larry Miller's policy is on equal employment opportunity. A. I think I have a good understanding. Q. What is your understanding? A. Equal employment, you know, everybody has the right to apply for any position and without prejudice or predetermination of that individual. You know, they have the right to apply for that particular position, and that's it. Q. Do you have any understanding as to what
Page 13

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

harassment violates federal law? MS. HOLMES: Same objection. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Do you? A. Like I said -MS. HOLMES: Same objection. THE WITNESS: -- I'm just unclear on it. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Based on the training that you've received at Larry Miller, do you have an understanding as to what discrimination is? A. Yeah. Q. What is your understanding? A. Discrimination would be, you know, an individual that has been categorized one way or the other that is unjust or unfair to no fault of their own. Q. Based on the training that you've received at Larry Miller, do you have an understanding as to whether discrimination violates federal law? A. I'm unclear on that. Q. Do you have an understanding as to what retaliation means following your training at Larry Miller? A. Retaliation would be a situation that would occur that would, you know, be an action or situation, treatment or, you know, an action taken against a person that probably seems threatening.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Larry Miller's policies are with regard to harassment? A. We -- you know, it's from Larry on down, that they don't condone, you know, any type of harassment. Q. Anything else? A. As far as? Q. Your understanding of the harassment policy. A. You know, if we feel that there's a situation and have been notified, you know, that there's -somebody has been harassed, we will immediately, you know, contact human resources. We will talk to that individual, and we will try and correct the situation as fast as possible, you know, to the best of our ability. Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether managers have a heightened responsibility under the Larry Miller policies regarding harassment? A. Yes. Q. What is your understanding? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: As far as understanding, you know, it's just somebody that we focus on and we talk about. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Is it your understanding that managers have a heightened responsibility under the Larry Miller handbook --

4 (Pages 10 to 13)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 14

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 5 of 16
Page 16

A. Yes. Q. -- regarding harassment? A. Yes. Q. I also forgot when you started today, are you represented by legal counsel today? A. Yes. Q. Are you testifying on behalf of the Larry Miller Group of Companies? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I'm being deposed, I guess, for what I know. I mean, yes. Yes, I work for the company. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Do you have an understanding as to the Larry Miller policies regarding discrimination? A. Did you ask that question already? Q. We talked about harassment. A. Oh, discrimination, yes. Q. What is your understanding regarding the Larry Miller policies regarding discrimination? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Once again, I just check with, you know, our human resources, you know, on any individual situation and get direction. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) What is your current position?
Page 15

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Let's see. Well, from now back until April 4th of 2000 when I came aboard the Miller Group. Before that, I worked for -- I can't give you dates. I definitely can't give you dates. But I worked for Pat Ryan & Associates for three years, and then I... Q. So that would have been 1997 to 2000 -- and I don't need exact dates, I just want to get an approximate time line. A. Yes. From that date back another year, I ran a bank liquidation center for a lender. And that was my own business. Q. What was the name of that business? A. Rocky Mountain Auto. Q. How long were you in that business? A. One year. F&I for -- back until -- do you want each dealership I worked at? Q. Yes, please. A. Let's see. Foothills Chrysler Jeep in Fort Collins for a year. Before that was Formby Ford and that was for a year-and-a-half. Stevinson Toyota, approximately four years; John Elway Toyota, two years; Empire Lakewood Nissan, two years; Lakewood Fordland, one year; and GMAC, two years. Q. Is that all of your employment back to high school?
Page 17

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Operations manager. Q. For what entity? A. For the automotive division, and I also am the finance director. Q. For what entity? A. The automotive division. Q. The automotive division is part of what entity? A. It's -- that is the division. Q. It's a division of a company? A. Well, there are two separate divisions in Larry Miller, sports and entertainment, and automotive. So it's -- you have the car side and you have the Jazz and concerts. Q. You work for the automotive division of the Larry H. Miller Group? A. Yes. Q. Do you work for Landcar? A. No. Well, no, I work for Larry H. Miller Management. Landcar is a division -- once again, it's a division of the automotive, say, subsidiary, if you will. Q. Let's talk about your employment history. I'd like for you to start with your current position and work backward down through college. Let me know all of your employment.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. College. Q. I'm sorry, to college? A. To college, yes. Q. To college. And then you were employed during college? A. Yes. I can give you those jobs, if you want. Q. Each of these jobs that you've just listed started with Foothills Chrysler Jeep to GMAC, were they in finance and insurance departments? A. Excluding GMAC? Q. Whatever -A. GMAC was collections, repossessions, floor plan audits. That was basically that. The dealerships were all F&I. Formby Ford was F&I -- you did a little bit of everything, used car manager, new car manager. Q. What is Pat Ryan & Associates? A. Pat Ryan & Associates is a finance and insurance consulting company. They're a subsidiary of AON, which is one of the largest insurance companies in the United States. They're even over in Europe. They are an insurance, credit life and disability, and also have other products, training, consulting, offshore companies. Q. What did you do for Pat Ryan & Associates? A. I was a consultant.

5 (Pages 14 to 17)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 18

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 6 of 16
Page 20

Q. What kind of consulting did you do? A. Went into dealerships, met with general managers and F&I people, but it was a front-end position in the store. Q. What do you mean by that? A. You just dealt with the front end, you know, sales managers, new and used car managers, F&I general sales managers, general managers. You know, you would review just what they did on a daily basis. Q. Have you ever been terminated from a position? A. No. Q. Have you ever been disciplined in any position you've held: Verbal warning, written warning, demotion? A. Never been demoted. No. Q. Are you aware of any complaints against you individually for discrimination or harassment of any type? A. No, I guess other than this one. Q. I'll point out -- do you understand you're not brought as a defendant individually in this lawsuit, you're named as a witness. Do you understand that? A. I do now. Q. Does Larry Miller have any type of policies
Page 19

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. One more time. Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether Larry Miller has a policy regarding how employees would lodge a complaint of discrimination? A. Contact, if possible, their immediate supervisor and, if not, they're certainly -- contact human resources or anyone that they feel comfortable in going to. Q. Once an employee has contacted their immediate supervisor or HR or anyone they feel comfortable going to, is there then a responsibility on the part of the Larry Miller employee, who has received a complaint of discrimination? A. I'm sorry, one more time. Q. Once someone has made a complaint to, for example, their supervisor or manager, is there a responsibility then on the part of the supervisor or the manager to do something? A. Yeah, immediately. Like I said, if you can sit down with that individual -- and it kind of depends on the situation, but verify, you know, the complaint and see if it can be, you know, resolved. You know, once again, you just get human resources involved. And I think that's what, you know, is probably the best route that at least most people will go.
Page 21

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that you're aware of regarding dating subordinates? A. Yes. Q. What is your understanding of that policy? A. We do not condone, management, I guess, fraternizing with subordinates. It puts both parties in a very -- I would say, compromising position or I guess it can. So we definitely discourage that. Q. Who is Tiffany? A. Tiffany? Q. Do you know any employees named Tiffany that you dated? A. No. Q. Do you deny dating any employee named Tiffany? A. Yes. Q. Have you dated any employees named Heidi? A. Heidi who? Q. Have you dated any employees named Heidi? A. No. Q. Have you ever breached the Larry Miller policy regarding dating subordinates? A. No. Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether Larry Miller has a process for employees to register complaints of discrimination?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Are you aware of any other complaints of discrimination, retaliation, or harassment against Larry Miller or Larry Miller's entities besides the lawsuit that we're talking about today? A. No. Q. Do you know who Mark Dundon is? A. Yes. Q. How do you know Mark Dundon? A. Mark was a general manager for us at the Boise, over a couple dealerships. Q. Is he still employed -A. No. Q. -- by Larry Miller? A. No. Q. Why not, do you know? A. I do not. Q. Do you know whether he was terminated or voluntarily quit? A. I do not. Q. How long have you known Mark Dundon? A. Since I started in April to whenever he left. Q. In April of 2000 is when you started? A. Yes. Q. Are you aware of any complaints against Mark Dundon of harassment or discrimination?

6 (Pages 18 to 21)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 22

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 7 of 16
Page 24

A. Just what I've read in the complaint or deposition. Q. Did you do anything to prepare for your deposition today? A. Just read over where my name was mentioned. Q. What documents did you look at? A. The complaint and deposition. Q. How long did you meet with your counsel to prepare for this deposition? A. Oh, a little this morning and a week or so ago. Q. Have you produced any documents to your counsel for this litigation? A. No. Q. Your current position is the operations manager for the automotive division for the Larry H. Miller Group; is that correct? A. Yes, and finance director. Q. Are those two separate jobs, operations manager and finance director? A. Yes. Q. As the finance director, do you have employees who report to you? A. They're not, per se, my employees, they work for the dealership. So I mean, they don't report to me
Page 23

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. They would just be for that store; whereas, you're the finance director for the automotive division? A. Yes. Q. Do you have the authority to hire and fire employees? A. No. Q. Do you know Tonya House? A. Yes. Q. How do you know Ms. House? A. She worked for our dealership, Denver Toyota. Q. We were talking a moment ago about Mark Dundon. Is it your testimony that before you read the depositions, you had no knowledge of complaints of discrimination or harassment against him? A. No. Q. That's not your testimony? A. No, that is my testimony. Yes. Q. So your testimony is that before you read the complaint preparing for your deposition, you had no knowledge of any prior complaints of harassment or discrimination against Mark Dundon? A. Correct. Q. You said that Mark Dundon worked as a GM for Larry Miller in Boise? A. Yes.
Page 25

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

but, yes, you know, I have involvement with them. They report to their specific store general manager. Every store stands on its own and -- you know, in a consulting... Q. What do you do as the operations manager? A. I oversee nine stores, you know, the operations of them. Q. In that capacity, do you work with the general manager of those nine stores? A. Yes. Q. In your capacity as finance director, do you work with finance managers of the stores? A. Yes. Q. Is there a difference between a finance manager and a finance director? A. It depends. Yes, it is -- yes, there is. And, you know, sometimes an individual will get a title and it may not be what I think might be the right title, but, you know, yes, there's a difference. Q. So in the stores sometimes -A. It's not really a finance manager, it's more of a finance contractor, finance manager. Q. In the stores are there some individuals who hold the title of finance director? A. Yes.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Is that the most recent position that you're aware of that he held before he left Larry Miller? A. Yes. Q. What dealerships was he general manager of? A. He was Capital Motors and Subaru Mitsubishi. Q. Do you know how long he held that position? A. He was here before I came here, so I don't. Q. Were you aware that he had been assigned to Denver to work as a general manager? A. No, I didn't know he was assigned. I knew that he had, you know, been there for, you know, a small period of time, but that's kind of -- that's a -Q. Did you know that from reading the documents in this case or did you have knowledge about that before? A. No. Mark had mentioned it to me, just, you know, I'd been over to Denver Toyota. It was when I was being recruited, is why I remember it. Q. Did he mention any problems or difficulties that he'd had at Denver Toyota? A. No. Q. Based on your training at Larry Miller, if a general manager went into a female employee's office, shut the door, and ripped all of her Christmas cards off the wall and threw them at her, would you consider that to be harassment?

7 (Pages 22 to 25)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 26

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 8 of 16
Page 28

A. Well, I wouldn't consider it very nice. Q. Based on your training, I'm asking whether you would consider it to be harassment. MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I would not consider that harassment. I would consider that a bad act. If he continued to do things of that nature, I would consider that as harassment. If he walked in there every day and threw something at her, I would consider that harassment, yes. If it were a one-time event, you know, hopefully, that wouldn't happen again. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) If a male general manager referred to finance meetings between a controller and a finance manager as cookie breaks, would you consider that discriminatory or harassing? A. I'm sorry, one more time. Q. If a general manager referred to the meetings that his employees held between the controller and the finance manager female employees, if he referred to that as cookie breaks, would you consider that discriminatory or harassment, based on the training you've had at Larry Miller? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question.
Page 27

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

a one-time incident? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: To me, a one-time event that person may have been harassed -- harassment to me is an ongoing situation. Can we have a bathroom break? MS. RYAN: Sure. That's fine I forgot to mention, if you need a break, let me know. (A brief recess was taken.) Q. (BY MS. RYAN) If a manager -- general manager told a subordinate employee -- female employee, that he thought redheads were great in bed, would you consider that to be a harassing comment? A. Once again, I would consider that as inappropriate. Once again, my understanding that I perceive harassment, you know, was a person harassed or are they being -- is it harass -- you know, harassment. And I guess if you term -- put the terminology to one act as harassment, I've always thought it was multiple. You know, they continue to harass this individual. So for an individual to make that comment, I view that as inappropriate. Q. If a female employee told you that a general manager that she reported to had said that to her, would you consider that a violation of the Larry Miller
Page 29

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

THE WITNESS: Once again, I would not consider that as harassment or discrimination; I would consider that as, you know, an inappropriate comment. Now, once again, if it was a daily, you know, thing that continued, I would consider that, yes, as harassment. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) If a male general manager went into a subordinate female employee's office and put his arms on her shoulder and tried to give her a massage, would you consider that harassment, based on your training at Larry Miller? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I would consider that inappropriate. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) You wouldn't consider it harassment? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: If he -- if it were something -- once again, a continuing deal, I would consider -- to me, harassment is, you know, something that takes place multiple times. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Based on your training that you've received at Larry Miller, do you have any understanding as to whether harassment can occur based on

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

policies? A. Absolutely. Q. If a general manager said to a female -asked a female employee who had red hair if she had a burning bush, would you consider that as a violation of Larry Miller policies? A. I guess I would wonder in what context that comment was made. Q. If a general manager told a female employee, who happened to have red hair, that he thinks redheads are wild in bed, sex in bed is great with redheads, and then asked her if she had a burning bush, would you consider that to be a violation of Larry Miller policies? A. That whole comment that you just read, absolutely. Q. If a general manager told a female employee that she was too old for him, but he'd fuck her anyways, would you consider that to be a violation of Larry Miller policies? A. Yes. Q. If a general manager who had made these statements that we just discussed also tried to touch an employee -- a female employee, by putting his hand on her shoulder in the front part of her chest area, would you consider that to be a violation of Larry Miller policies?

8 (Pages 26 to 29)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 30

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 9 of 16
Page 32

MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: You know, based on what you described, I guess I would have to see a, you know, visualization of how that occurred, if it was just a brush up or passing or -Q. (BY MS. RYAN) If the general manager who had made the comments that we discussed went into his female subordinates office, closed her door, approached her, and tried to touch the front part of her shoulder near her chest area, would you consider that a violation of Larry Miller policies? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Well, once again, I mean, I would have to see how that took place. I don't -- I can tell you that nobody has the right to touch any female in the breast area, period. So when you say the shoulder, breast area, it's a little vague for me. I think a handshake would be much more appropriate. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) If a manager touched a female employee on the shoulder/breast area and she asked him to stop, would it be a violation, in your estimation of the Larry Miller policies, if he tried to touch her again after that incident?
Page 31

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Is part of the purpose of a mini audit to see if the dealerships are reconciling bank accounts? A. Yes. Q. Have you ever participated in a mini audit? A. I personally haven't, you know, done the mini audit, but I've sat in an exit -- you know, interview, I guess, on a mini audit. Q. Do you utilize mini audits in your position? A. Yes. Q. How do you utilize them? A. Well, after we get the mini audit back, you know, from the people that conducted it, you just review it and call that general manager up and review it with him and say, "Hey, you know, you have these issues and, you know, let's get them corrected or let's look at the policies and procedures to correct these, you know, issues that maybe the mini audit found or uncovered. It's actually a pretty good tool. Q. Does Larry Miller have any female general managers? A. No. Q. Are you aware of any female general managers that Larry Miller has ever had or -- strike that, that's kind of a bad question. Do you know whether Larry Miller has ever had
Page 33

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Yes. Q. Do you know who Nicole St. John is? Nicole St. John? A. No. Or I should say no, I don't think so. You tell me. Q. Do you know whether Larry Miller Group does mini audits? A. Yes. Q. What is your understanding of the purpose of a mini audit? A. A mini audit is just to go in and spot-check, you know a variety of, you know, different categories in an automotive dealership and, you know, find out if there's any -- you know, any problems. It gives you a quick snapshot of the dealership in different areas. Q. Is part of the purpose of the Larry Miller mini audit to see if the dealerships are following the policies? A. Yes. Q. Is part of the purpose of a mini audit to see if the dealerships are collecting money from vendors? A. Yes. Q. Is part of the purpose of a mini audit to see if the dealerships are collecting contracts in transit? A. Yes.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

a female general manager? A. In my four years, no. And I don't know about before then. Q. Do you -- are you part of the corporate management team? A. Yes. Q. Who is on that team? A. There's -- well, we can start with Richard Nelson, Bryant Henry. Q. And actually, too, while you're listing these, if you could put in their titles. So Richard Nelson is a -A. COO. Bryant Henry is vice president of operations; Tony Schnurr, vice president of operations; myself, Pat Kroneberger, vice president of operations. You have Clark Whitworth, who is the CFO. Then you have me again as the finance director, Pat Kroneberger. You have Jack Muterspaugh, who is over the service departments. You have Dan Ware, who is over the parts department. You have -- do you just want the head of that -- of each department? There are a few people underneath. Does that matter? Q. Let's just start with the heads of the department. A. You have Linda Jeppeson, who is human

9 (Pages 30 to 33)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 34

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 10 of 16
Page 36

resources; Carolyn Ashburn, I don't know -- I don't know what her title is, special projects, I think is -- you have Dan Curtis, who is head of Landcar; Robert Tingey, who is counsel; Jim Shoenfield, which is our IS director; Al Fernelius, which is accounting; Brent Barrett, accounting; Richard Dickert, accounting; Paul Nygaard, who really is under LHM advertising. I'm just trying to go around up here. Oh, Erwin Ashenfelter, real estate projects. That's pretty much it. Oh, Dave Monson, since he was just walking by. Dave Monson is -- I guess, the best way to call him would be -- he is in charge of federal programs OFAC; Graham Litzbiley, he is constantly out in the dealerships educating them on that. That's it. Q. Thank you. If a member of your corporate management team said that he didn't like to hire women, not even dikes for his department, would you consider that to be a discriminatory or harassment statement under Larry Miller policies? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I would consider that as discriminatory, yes; harassing, no. It was a comment. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Do you think comments can't be harassing?
Page 35

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

aware of issues that she was having related to her pay plan? A. Yes. Q. What was your understanding of those issues? A. Tonya called me up and, quite honestly, I couldn't tell you even how the call was initiated. It wasn't initiated for a pay plan issue. As a matter of fact, I can't even tell you that she called me or I called her, and I'll tell you why I remember, is whatever we were talking about, could have just been daily, you know, whatever, and she said, "There's been a mistake in my pay," and you know, rattled off you know some numbers, but I couldn't tell you what they were. And I was, like, "Okay. Well, have you spoken with anybody about it," you know, specifically. In the time frame that this came up, the general manager was Bob Cockerham, and the reason why I know that -- and I'll tell you in a second -- is she through -- however she said it, she said, "You know, there's a mistake in my pay" and rattled off some percentages. And I said, "Well, have you talked to anybody?" "Well, I have in the past, but nothing has ever been done about it." And I said, "Okay. Well, how much are we talking?" And that's why I remember the conversation because she said, "Well, it's like $33,000."
Page 37

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Once again, I just think harassing, to me, is multiple, you know, somebody is being harassed multiple times. I think a situation stands on its own and if it continues, yes, it's very harassing. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) But you do acknowledge that even one instance of harassing conduct can be considered a violation of Larry Miller's policies? A. Well, what was your -- how did you phrase it first? Discriminatory. I consider that discriminatory. That's what I consider that. Q. Do you acknowledge that one instance of harassing conduct can be a violation of Larry Miller's policies -MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) -- based on the training you've received at Larry Miller? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Once again, I'd have to know what the situation was, but... Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Did Tonya House ever make you

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

And I was like, "Okay." Obviously, that's a pretty big discrepancy. So I said, "Well, go mention it to Bob and I will do the same," which I did. Next time I talked to Bob -- couldn't tell you the gist of the conversation, if he called me or I called him or what we talked about. But I said, "By the way, Tonya feels that we -- she's owed $33,000 for back pay, you might want to look into it." And that's my involvement in that. Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether she was ever paid $33,000 for back pay? A. Yes. Q. What is your understanding? A. She got paid. It was also -- and let me add -- mentioned to Tony Schnurr and Tony's take on it was "If we owe it, let's pay it. You know, let's have Bob look into it once again." And Bob did and she got paid. And that was kind of the last I heard of it. In fact, that was the last I heard of it. Q. Did you ever receive any complaints, whether formal or informal, could be just a conversation on the phone, from Roberta Pulse or Tonya House about Bob Cockerham's management? A. Roberta, no. As a matter of fact, in the deposition Roberta's comment was, "Do you know Pat

10 (Pages 34 to 37)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 38

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 11 of 16
Page 40

Kroneberger? Did he harass you?" She said, "I couldn't pick him out of a lineup." I, too, don't remember Roberta. Tonya did call me and said -- basically, she said "I can't work for Bob anymore. He is, you know, getting me in these daily save-a-deal meetings and I just can't work for Bob." And I just said, "Have you talked to Bob?" And she hadn't, but things weren't very good between them, apparently. At that point, once again, I don't think it would have been a conscious, "Call up Bob," it was just the next time we talked and I said, "By the way, Tonya's pretty unhappy, you know, feels like" -- you know, I don't even know what the terminology was, but she was unhappy and you may want to talk to her about it. And, you know, Bob did express to me, you know, that -- you know, they were having these daily save-a-deal meetings and knowing Bob from the dealership he came from, Bob has a very good FI background, he's very pro finance and insurance oriented, and he's very involved and very active on a daily basis on car deals and all the things that go with them. He felt through, you know, the save-a-deal meetings that were conducted there were, you know, some loose ends, you know. So that was pretty much my
Page 39

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

but we have very limited time today. So I'm going to just need to keep the questions kind of focused. A. Okay. Q. And I understand what you're saying is that -- and correct me if I'm wrong. What you're saying is the save-a-deal meetings you felt were an accepted practice -A. Absolutely. Q. -- in an effort to maintain some control over the car deals? A. Yes. Q. Would it be acceptable if you knew that a general manager, who was conducting the save-a-deal meetings, was yelling at a female employee in front of the other employees? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: One more time. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Based on your training of the Larry Miller policies, would you consider it acceptable for a general manager to single out a female employee and yell at her in front of the other employees during these save-a-deal meetings? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question.
Page 41

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

involvement in that. Q. Did Tonya House tell you that he was singling her out and yelling at her in these save-a-deal meetings? A. No. Q. Did she ever tell you that Bob Cockerham would yell at her? A. No. I know she didn't like the meetings, she didn't care for them. She's like, you know -- like I said, I can't give you the word for word, I can't even give you -- I can just give you -- I remember she called me. She didn't like the meetings, never had to do them before, didn't have to do them under Newendyke or, I don't think, any other previous GM. Knowing Bob the way I do, like I said, save-a-deal is a -- from a company that I came from, Pat Ryan & Associates, it's trained, it's -- you know, it's an accepted practice in the car business. You know, if you take, say, for instance, yesterday if you were the general manager, we delivered, let's say, ten cars. And of those ten cars, let's say each one was worth $30,000, which probably is not a stretch for Toyota, there you have, since you floor your cars from the bank, we don't own the cars, we floor them... Q. I do appreciate your attempt to explain this,

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

THE WITNESS: That wouldn't be acceptable. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Did you say that would not be acceptable? A. That would not be acceptable. And that's just not for a female, that's for anybody. I think we can get our point across without yelling. Q. Were you involved in the decision to terminate Richard Newendyke's employment? A. No. Q. Did you have an understanding that at some point Richard Newendyke's employment had terminated and that Bob Cockerham was installed at the dealerships? A. No, I wasn't involved in it, I just knew Bob got sent over to Denver. I was finance manager, I wasn't privileged to those conversations. Q. But you remember that at some point Bob became the finance manager -- Bob Cockerham became the finance manager at the Denver dealerships? A. General manager? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. Do you recall that he became the general manager sometime in March of 2001 in Denver? A. Who? Q. Bob Cockerham. Let me ask that again, it was

11 (Pages 38 to 41)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 42

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 12 of 16
Page 44

kind of a -- do you recall that Bob Cockerham became the general manager in Denver sometime in March of 2001? A. If that is the date, yes. Q. Did you make any visits to Denver within the first month or so after his installation as general manager? A. I'm sure I did. Q. Were you ever present when Mr. Cockerham was interviewing an employee named Barb Ryerson? A. I don't recall. Q. Do you recall whether Bob Cockerham was interviewing employees for the position that Roberta Pulse held at that time? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall being present for any of those interviews? A. I don't recall. Q. Did you have an understanding as to whether Bob Cockerham was looking for replacements for Roberta Pulse sometime in April of 2001? A. As far as the dates, if you say so. I know Bob was looking for an office manager, yes. Q. Do you recall being present for any of the interviews that Bob conducted? A. I don't.
Page 43

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

given them a welcome and round of applause, yes. Q. So, Tonya was transferring from the Denver Toyota store to the 104th store? A. Yes. Q. Did you announce on the conference call that that was a promotion for Tonya? A. No. Q. Did you ask the people in the conference call to give her a round of applause for her promotion? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Like I said, if that were the case, it would traditionally be a "Let's welcome this individual" and, you know. We do a lot, I guess, in many different situations. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Did you like Tonya House? A. Yeah, Tonya did a good job for us. Q. Were you ever aware of any comments by Tony Schnurr related to Tonya House or Roberta Pulse being bitches or troublemakers? A. No. Once again, I was the finance director, and I was not privileged to, you know, a lot of, you know, conversation in that regard. But no, Tony never made any comments to me, whatsoever. Q. Do you think that it would be appropriate
Page 45

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Do you remember Tonya House asking you whether Roberta Pulse was going to be fired during that same time frame? A. No. Q. Did you ever have any conversations with Bob Cockerham or anyone else discussing how great it was that the employees or, more specifically, Roberta Pulse was worried about losing her job? A. No. Q. Did you at some point become aware of Tonya House's efforts to move up in the company and gain a promotion? A. No. Q. Did you ever announce on a conference call that Tonya House had been promoted? A. No. Q. Did you ever on a conference call announce that Tonya House had been promoted and asked everyone to give her a round of applause? A. No. May I respond or add? Q. Sure. A. We had a conference call once a month. When new people come on, we welcome them, which we did the person that went into Denver Toyota. And Tonya had been transferred to 104th. And yes, I'm sure we may have

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

under the Larry Miller policies to give a promotion to a male employee who had harassed his female subordinates? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Would it be appropriate to give a promotion to someone who harassed subordinates? I don't think that would be appropriate. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Have you ever heard any comments that Tony Schnurr had a, quote, hard on, end quote, for Roberta Pulse? A. No. Q. Do you think it would be harassing if a general manager called a female subordinate a piece of shit -MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) -- based on your training that you've received by Larry Miller and based on Larry Miller's policies? MS. HOLMES: Same objection. THE WITNESS: That would not be an appropriate comment. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Do you think it would be harassing or discriminatory for a male general manager to tell his female subordinate that he thinks she's a piece

12 (Pages 42 to 45)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 46

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 13 of 16
Page 48

of shit, based on your knowledge of Larry Miller's policies? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I just think it's an inappropriate comment. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) If a manager told you that another manager had said that to his female employee, do you think it would be appropriate to take any measures? A. Yes. Q. What kind of measures? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Well, if you just -- number one, I would first want to find out from the individual that it was supposedly said to, you know, "Was this said to you, under what circumstances, you know. And I would get with the individual at that point who said it, ask them if they said it. You know, I'd contact human resources before and let them know that, you know, this has been alleged this individual said it. And if it had, I would have that person written up or have it put in their file. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) If a male general manager called a female subordinate a piece of shit on a repeated
Page 47

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. No. Q. Are you aware that in or around May of 2001 there was a computer conversion at the Denver offices converting the systems from Reynolds & Reynolds to ADP? A. If that's the time frame, I know that there was a conversion, yes. Q. Were you involved in any way in that computer conversion? A. No. Q. Do you know who determined the timing for the computer conversion for the different dealerships? A. No. I mean, I can certainly speculate or... Q. I don't want you to speculate. A. No. Q. Okay. A. Just not privileged to that. I certainly wasn't privileged to any of that. Q. Did you ever hear any statements alleging that Roberta Pulse had stolen money from Larry Miller? A. No. Q. Did you ever hear any statements alleging that Roberta Pulse had engaged in irregular accounting practices? A. No. I mean, personally didn't. You know, after, you know, she was gone, there was -- there was
Page 49

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

basis, say, five times, would you consider that a violation of Larry Miller's policies against discrimination and harassment? A. That certainly would violate our policy. That certainly would be harassing. Q. Did Tonya House ever talk with you about an offer that she received from Richard Newendyke for her to go to the Used Car Supercenter and take on more responsibilities? A. No. Q. How many times did Tonya complain to you about Bob Cockerham? A. Well, the one time that I referred to the phone call. That's really it. Q. Would you dispute Tonya's contention that she told you on more than one occasion of harassing conduct by Bob Cockerham? A. As best as I can remember, yes, I would. I do remember the one phone call and she was upset, yes. Q. Did you ever tell Richard Newendyke that you were disappointed that Tonya wanted to branch out and not just focus on F&I or words to that effect? A. No. Q. When Tonya House was pregnant, did you ask her if she was going to stay home with her baby?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

quite a bit of just things that I wasn't really involved in. Q. What things are you referring to? A. Just, you know, accounting. They had to take people from here, or wherever they got them, over there to help out with accounting stuff. Q. When did you learn -- or strike that. At some point did you become aware that Roberta Pulse and Tonya House had filed charges of discrimination with the EEOC? A. A couple years ago. I don't know. Q. Do you remember being contacted or questioned about the EEOC charges? A. No. Q. Did you ever hear a statement made by anyone in management in a meeting saying that Roberta Pulse and Tonya House had lost their EEOC case? A. No. Q. How long have you known Tony Schnurr? A. Four years and three months. Q. Were you ever aware of any comments or statements that Tony Schnurr either didn't like Roberta Pulse or thought she was a troublemaker, words to that effect? A. No.

13 (Pages 46 to 49)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Based on your training at Larry Miller, if a

Document 207
Page 50

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 14 of 16
Page 52

1 member of the management team said to transfer a female 2 employee to a different store and to keep her away from 3 the men in that store, would you consider that to be 4 discriminatory based on Larry Miller's policies? 5 MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the 6 question. 7 THE WITNESS: I guess if that were the 8 situation. It seems kind of a highly unlikely scenario 9 to me. 10 Q. (BY MS. RYAN) But if a member of the 11 management team had made that -- had directed an employee 12 to do that, to transfer a female employee to another 13 store and keep her away from the men, do you consider 14 that to be discriminatory statement under Larry Miller's 15 policies? 16 MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how to answer that 19 one. I don't know. I wouldn't let it get to that point. 20 There's obviously an issue. 21 Q. (BY MS. RYAN) But if a manager said that and 22 you became aware of it, do you think that that would be a 23 violation of Larry Miller's policies, a discriminatory 24 statement, directing an employee to transfer a female 25
Page 51

MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Based on the question, I honestly can't answer that, because I don't think that it's a real situation. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Well, I'm entitled to have you answer these questions, and as the deponent you need to answer the question whether or not you think that it's a real comment or not. I'm just asking you as a member of the management team at Larry Miller, who has received extensive training on the policies, if you became aware that another member of the management team had said to transfer a female employee to another store and to keep her away from the men, would you consider that a discriminatory statement under the Larry Miller policy? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. It's been asked and answered. He said what he can. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) You do need to answer the question. A. I consider it a very either stupid or poor statement. That's what I consider that. Q. Would you consider it something that warranted further investigation?
Page 53

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

employee to another store and keep her away from the men? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. It's been asked and answered. THE WITNESS: Not to not answer your question, I don't see that as being a realistic comment or situation. Not anybody that I know -- you wouldn't do that. How would you do that, I guess? Q. (BY MS. RYAN) You mean actually implement that directive? A. Yeah. I guess to me, therefore, I don't think that that's a valid, even potential comment. It's almost... Q. Would you take it seriously if an employee told you that a member of the management team had said to transfer a female employee to another store and to keep her away from the men? A. I'd take any situation that, you know, potentially is a human resource issue seriously, absolutely. Q. So beyond your disbelief that someone could actually say that, if you learned that a member of your management team had actually said to transfer a female employee to another store and to keep her away from the men, would you consider that a discriminatory statement under Larry Miller's policies prohibiting discrimination?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. If that had actually been said, because I feel that it is so ridiculous, I would investigate that, yes. Q. And if you found that it actually had been said, based on the Larry Miller policies, do you think, based on your training, that you would consider that a discriminatory statement? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. It's been asked and answered several times. You're harassing the witness. MS. RYAN: No, I'm not harassing. I am not harassing the witness. MS. HOLMES: He has given his answer several times. MS. RYAN: He hasn't. There's been several variations of the question and I'm entitled to do that to get the answer. MS. HOLMES: I object, and I think you're going beyond. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Answer, please. Please answer the question. MS. HOLMES: Object to the form and object to this repeated -THE WITNESS: Ask that question again, please.

14 (Pages 50 to 53)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Document 207
Page 54

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 15 of 16
Page 56

MS. RYAN: Can you look at the last variation, please, of that question? (The last question was read back.) MS. HOLMES: Same objection. THE WITNESS: My answer is I don't know how to answer that. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Would you be concerned if you learned that a member of your management team directed an employee to send a female employee to another store and to keep her away from the men? MS. HOLMES: Object to the form of the question. A. Based on the answer that I've given you, which apparently is unacceptable to you, I don't know how to answer that question. MS. RYAN: Move to strike the answer as nonresponsive. Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Were you involved in the decision to split the accounting functions of the Larry Miller Toyota store in Denver and the Used Car Superstore in Denver? A. No. Q. Do you know who was? A. No. MS. HOLMES: Can we take about a five-minute
Page 55

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

said? A. I don't, I just know she was upset. Q. And you know that she was upset because of the conditions she was under working with Bob Cockerham? A. Yes, you know, and specifically the morning meetings. She was upset. Q. Did you follow up with human resources at all about that conversation? A. No. Q. Did you think that Tonya House was paid too much in her position as a finance manager or finance director? A. No. Q. Did you think she was a good employee? A. Yeah. Yes. Yes, Tonya did a nice job for us. Q. Do you remember whether Tonya House ever told you that she was going to have to quit because she couldn't work for Bob anymore? Bob Cockerham, that is. A. Once again -- and I want to answer as truthfully as possible, because the situation did exist. And I can't tell you what she said, but I do remember her saying, "I cannot work with Bob Cockerham." And I don't recall her using the words "I'm going to quit." She was frustrated, upset, and "I just cannot
Page 57

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

break?

1 MS. RYAN: We can take a ten-minute break. 2 And I'm really about to finish. 3 MS. HOLMES: Great. 4 MS. RYAN: So I think we'll be very close to 5 being done when we come back. 6 THE WITNESS: Great. 7 (A recess was taken.) 8 Q. (BY MS. RYAN) Earlier you testified that 9 Tonya House had a phone conversation with you in which 10 she said that she was having problems with Bob Cockerham; 11 is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you ask her at that time what the 14 problems were? 15 A. I'm sure I did. Yeah, I'm sure I did. 16 Q. Do you remember what she said? 17 A. No. I mean, honestly, I don't, but she was 18 upset. 19 Q. Did you make any notes of that phone call? 20 A. No, I did not. 21 Q. Do you remember her telling you that Bob 22 Cockerham was belittling her? 23 A. No. And I'm sorry I -24 Q. So, you don't remember specifically what was 25

work with this man -- individual, I can't do it." And which at that time I just said, "Have you spoke to Bob about it?" I said, "Well, let me speak to Bob." And like I said, whenever the conversation came up, "Hey, Tonya is upset." Of course, Bob had his side of, Well, da-dah da-dah. And I can't even tell you what he said other than... Q. But you didn't follow up with HR on that matter? A. I did not. Q. And I'm just about done here. Did you ever hear Tony Schnurr ask Tonya House what she was going to do after she had her baby? A. No. Q. Did you ever hear Tony Schnurr ask Tonya House, "Aren't you going to stay home with your baby?" A. No. MS. RYAN: I have no further questions at this time. MS. HOLMES: Thanks.

15 (Pages 54 to 57)

Case 1:03-cv-02073-WDM-KLM
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ______________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC 1. Page ____ Line ____ Correction ________________ Reason ____________________________________________ 2. Page ____ Line ____ Correction _________________ Reason ____________________________________________ 3. Page ____ Line ____ Correction _________________ Reason ____________________________________________ 4. Page ____ Line ____ Correction ________________ Reason ____________________________________________ 5. Page ____ Line ____ Correction _______________ Reason ____________________________________________ 6. Page ____ Line ____ Correction _________________ Reason ____________________________________________ 7. Page ____ Line ____ Correction _______________ Reason ____________________________________________ 8. Page ____ Line ____ Correction _______________ Reason ____________________________________________ 9. Page ____ Line ____ Correction ________________ Reason ____________________________________________ 10. Page ____ Line ____ Correction ________________ Reason ___________________________________________ 11. Page ____ Line ____ Correction ________________ Reason ____________________________________________ ______________________________ PAT KRONEBERGER SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to at ____________________ this ________ day of _______________, 2004. CERTIFICATE STATE OF _____________) : ss. COUNTY OF ____________) I HEREBY CERTIFY that I have read the foregoing testimony consisting of 195 pages, numbered from 3 to 197, inclusive, and the same is a true and correct transcription of said testimony, with the exception of the corrections I have listed below in ink, giving my reasons therefor.

Document 207
Page 58

Filed 12/22/2005

Page 16 of 16

Page 59
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WITNESS MY HAND and official seal at Salt Lake City, Utah, this 9th day of August, 2004. ____________________________ KAREN HOURT, CSR, RPR My Commission Expires: December 20, 2007 CERTIFICATE STATE OF UTAH ) : ss. COUNTY OF SALT LAKE) THIS IS TO CERTIFY that the deposition of PAT KRONEBERGER, the witness in the foregoing deposition named, was taken before me, Karen Hourt, Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Utah, residing at West Jordan, Utah. That the said witness was by me, before examination, duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in said cause. That the testimony of said witness was reported by me in Stenotype and thereafter caused by me to be transcribed into typewriting, and that a full, true and correct transcription of said testimony so taken and transcribed is set forth in the foregoing pages numbered from 3 to 57, inclusive, and said witness deposed and said as in the foregoing annexed deposition. I further certify that after the said deposition was transcribed, a reading copy and a correction page were delivered to the witness for reading and signature before a Notary Public, and to be returned to me for filing. I further certify that I am not of kin or otherwise associated with any of the parties to said cause of action, and that I am not interested in the event thereof.

16 (Pages 58 to 59)